we just won our first conference series this yr

Southern Conference Champions - 2007

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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby Natural on Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:20 pm

FACT: Despite being the second smallest institution competing at the Division 1 level, Wofford baseball's Strength of Schedule (SOS) in 2010 is ranked as the 79th toughest Division 1 schedule in the country out of all 300 Division 1 programs.

FACT: 3 of the top 4 hitters in the Southern Conference are Wofford baseball players.

FACT: Wofford's team pitching ERA is lower this season by 1.6 runs from last season.

Those are positive FACTS no matter how you slice it. And with 23 freshman and sophomores on the roster and only one senior in the starting lineup (albeit a good one), the team should continue to improve.

GO TERRIERS!
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby Oak Grove on Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:52 pm

I am not a baseball fan, and this the first time I’ve ever posted to this board on any thread other than football. But I’ve been hearing from some friends about a group of bully posters patrolling the baseball thread who use profanity and personal attacks to argue their points. After doing a bit of reading, I’m beginning to see what they mean.

Since several of you guys consider baseball the be-all, end-all sport and seem to have all of the answers, I’d like to get your thoughts on something: If the level of competition, athletes, and everything else in baseball is so much better than football at Wofford, why has football averaged between 7,500 and 9,000 in attendance over the last decade, compared to only 500 to 700 or so for baseball? (I can only find statistics for attendance leaders in college baseball on-line—which says a lot—but considering that the 50th ranked team in the country only averaged about 1,000 last season, I’d say that 500 to 700 is a pretty liberal estimate for Wofford baseball. If anyone has attendance figures, I’d be interested in hearing them.) That equates to roughly 15 to 17 times as many people who come to an average Wofford football game versus baseball, despite a comparitively hefty ticket price for the former and "inferior" FCS competition. Plus, football never benefits from a visit by Clemson or Carolina to pad the attendance numbers. (Of course, it’s not just at Wofford. Tennessee football packs in 100,000, while their baseball team draws in 1,200 or 1,300 on average. LSU, a perennial leader in baseball attendance, averages 8,000 or 9,000, yet its football team plays in front of 80,000 or 90,000.) So, why is it that so many more people attend Wofford football games than baseball games? Any thoughts? Is it because the world is fun of morons?

Again, I am not a baseball fan. I am only visiting this thread because I got wind of unwarranted attacks on the football program from a few posters.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby Art Vandalay on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:22 pm

Oak Grove wrote: compared to only 500 to 700 or so for baseball?


Oak,

From my observations, the attendance at baseball games, with the exception of a couple of marquee opponents, is closer to 50 to 70.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby SC_Terrier on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:56 pm

I think it is unfair to compare any Wofford program to the baseball program. WoCo Baseball is exactly right, the SOCON is ranked in the top seven each year in terms of RPI. The baseball team does play elite competition each year with their non-conference games (USC, Clemson, GT, Georgia, Tenn) as well as within the conference. For the past eight years, the SOCON has consistently had two teams ranked in the top 30. From 2003-2007, CofC was a top 25 program (in 2006 they were the #1 ranked RPI school in the country) and in 2007 both Western and Elon broke the Top 30 twice...anyone who says that they don't play "top flight" competition is ignorant to college baseball. While I agree that it is ridiculous to compare the football program’s success and competition against the baseball program, I also think it is equally ridiculous to demean and downplay the level of competition and baseball talent in the SOCON. While it may seem hard to believe, the SOCON IS absolutely on the level of top 10 college football conferences…probably comparable to the Mountain West or the WAC. I honestly think that most posters are oblivious to the level of play in the conference and I think that is why it is hard for them to understand why winning is so hard for the baseball program. You complain and insult a program for not winning but you also don’t congratulate or compliment when they do win, especially in the SOCON. Not having scholarships is a legit and valid excuse. If Utah (MAC) was under-funded in football, do you think their fans would be complaining about the team not winning? No, because they understand the level of competition within their conference and they would quickly realize that if they want to be taken seriously, they have to fund the program.

I think it’s absurd that our baseball forum has been so negative since the hiring in 2007. Considering the tools that our program has to work with, I think most poster’s expectations are ridiculous. There is a difference between being realistic and hoping for pockets of good things to happen (i.e. 2007 Tourney) and being unrealistic and thinking that our program should be in the upper quintile of the conference.

I also think that we have some of the worst fans in the SOCON. If I remember correctly the same posters that absolutely love and passionately defend our basketball program now were extremely negative every year prior to 2009. I truly believe that some “fans” on this board wish for our team to fail so that they can use the ‘ole line, “told you so.”
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby SC_Terrier on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:14 pm

"If the level of competition, athletes, and everything else in baseball is so much better than football at Wofford, why has football averaged between 7,500 and 9,000 in attendance over the last decade, compared to only 500 to 700 or so for baseball?"

Oak Grove, This seems like a post that I would read on a Gamecock board. Seriously?

I consider both to be a product. There isn’t enough football product to supply the demand from fans. With only 11 games in a season, one day a week, people can’t get enough of Wofford football…I’m one of them. The baseball team plays 56 games in their season, four/five each week…more product creating less demand….simple economics.

Attention Span – People have very short attention spans…especially during a sporting event. Football is quick and violent. A quick baseball game lasts three hours. It is a serious investment for a person to watch a team for 56 games versus only 11 games.

Media – Even though Wofford isn’t on CBS each weekend, the media loves college football. During the fall, college football is the only thing being talked about in the sports world. This has a trickle down affect for Wofford. More people are talking about it and it creates more excitement. The Southern Fried Football tour visits Wofford each year…I’ve never seen them at a college baseball game…in fact, I never hear of anyone mentioning college baseball with the exception of a few segments in local talk radio.

The first reason is the most important and that explains why the NFL dominates the MLB. So whatever you are implying or trying to prove it is “erroneous on all accounts.”
Last edited by SC_Terrier on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby WoCoBaseball on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:16 pm

Good points SC Terrier. As I said earlier - I think most of the diatribes on this board are partly caused by a complete lack in understanding the college baseball landscape.

I also completely agree with you that most on this board hope for the baseball program to fail.

I don't totally understand the attendance argument. Are you trying to suggest that because Wofford football has more fans in attendance they are more successful? So attendance equates to success? That sounds like a good straw man argument - and if that were the case then I guess Wichita State basketball is more successful than their baseball program since the basketball team averages 10,480 fans. (Since you "don't like baseball" I'll let you know that their baseball program has been to the College World Series - the elite 8 of baseball - 6 times and has a National Championship).
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby Oak Grove on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:56 pm

I’ll spell it out: Several frequent posters to the baseball threads seem to think that Wofford football is overrated and irrelevant. Because they don’t play for the BCS championship, theirs is an inferior brand of intercollegiate athletics, the argument goes. Based on attendance figures, a lot of people must feel otherwise.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby T2TCampbell87 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:08 am

Ok so excuse me there are 30 teams, after writing a dissertation I figured there would be at least one typo.

My point still stands, in baseball there are roughly 50+ games in a season, offering the higher quality opponents from other conferences the ability to schedule teams in the SoCon. The reason the conference is in the top 7-10 in the RPI is because of the strength of the OOC schedule that a vast majority of our teams play (SEC, ACC, Big 12). In doing that, the RPI shoots up because of strenth of schedule. IMO it is more important for this team to build confidence by beating the lesser opponents in weaker conferences because obviously playing Clemson, USC (sans the every 4 year upset), AZ St., etc is not getting us ready to beat the teams in our conference.

The only reason I posted was to call you out on your end all be all opinion on WoCo baseball being the best and most competitive sport at Wofford, because as any semi-educated observer can see, the baseball team while a good part of the AD, is not even close to the best in the AD.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby reggie warren jr on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:12 am

oak grove,

wofford football is great, and those guys do a wonderful job in d1 aa, buts lets get real here. the level of competition that baseball and basketball faces is far superior to that of football. and the sad thing is is that the wofford athletic administration continues to not give enough resources to teams that can compete with bcs teams for a true natl championship. wofford football is not as good as everyone thinks. when is the last time that we have beaten a bcs team in that sport? baseball and basketball do it at least once a year
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby T2TCampbell87 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:13 am

My point is not to demean the baseball team, it's more to disprove your argument. The 2007 team was great and finally started hitting at a level that had never been seen at Wofford. Don't let the rose colored glasses of love for one sport over another get in the way of facts and levels of competition. I could go play Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron, etc. and lose by a million points but that would make your argument that I played against top flite competition. What's the point of competition if you never actually compete?



Oh btw Tenn wasn't even close to a Top 10 team that year we beat them, but I digress.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby T2TCampbell87 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:15 am

Reggie,

I think you are underestimating the differences between football and basketball/baseball. In football the far superior teams wins 99/100. In the other two sports as evidence by upsets every week are much easier and more frequent. The football team in its own right is just about as dominate as it can be with the style of game/level of player/level of competition.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby reggie warren jr on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:46 am

"What's the point of competition if you never actually compete?"

ok are you serious with that question? i would much rather play top 25 teams and get blown out week in and week out, than play crappy teams. bc with those loses comes higher quality learning experiences and motivation to succeed, and that is what makes winners. wins and losses are not the do all end all, especially when it comes to building a quality program that succeeds year in and year out. and lets face it, we are in the building faze of this program, and that is why it sickens me when people constantly trash the baseball team, and its personnel. its like you people want instant success without putting the time and effort required to win into the program.

oh and by the way
watching our football team play a game is like watching a track meet. i cant remember the last time that we had a qb that could throw the ball more than 15 yards, or a kicker that could actually make a 25 yard field goal on a regular basis. but i digress...
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby dungeonjoe on Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:05 am

Which sport is better at Wofford? Which is more competitive? From where I sit, it is an apples and oranges comparison. My hope is that both are competitive. That they utilize the talent they have to be effective on and off the field. My hope is that the programs can be the built upon yearly.

By the way:

What is the graduation rate of these teams? How many scholastic all conference members do we have on average?

Success is more than wins, loses, and who can do more push-ups.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby SC_Terrier on Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:00 am

I could go play Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron, etc. and lose by a million points but that would make your argument that I played against top flite competition. What's the point of competition if you never actually compete?

That is not my point. My point is….our “fan” base has ridiculous expectations for our baseball program, which does happen to compete in one of the toughest conferences in the country. Campbell you are wrong on the reason that our conference is ranked 7th. While strength of schedule is a factor, it still comes down to wins and losses and quality wins. CofC, Western, Elon, and Georgia Southern all consistently put up 50 + win seasons. So obviously it goes a little deeper than just playing great competition…they are actually winning against that competition. It is also dumb to think that the SOCON is the only conference playing ACC, SEC, Big 12, Pac-10 teams in OOC games. So Campbell your point quickly falls apart…but I digress.

You did make the comment, “At least the football team and basketball team compete against top flite talent.” To use your logic from an earlier post, the football team plays “top flite” teams like Wisconsin and South Florida but they aren’t even close to being competitive in those games (with the exception of USC in 2007). But with the exception of App State and Elon, the football schedule is far from being filled with “top flite” teams. The football and baseball programs should not be compared to each other. Over the past eight seasons, the football team has done extremely well within the SOCON. And I think the football team should be a fully funded program because, as Oak Grove pointed out, they are the money makers for the Athletic Dept. But don’t let their success raise the expectations of the other sports because it really is apples and oranges. The day that we have a fully funded baseball program will be the day that your expectations should be for us to compete for a conference championship on an annual basis. Until then you can only hope that good things happen.

I still think that our “fans” generally are oblivious to college baseball and they have absurd expectations for our program. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to put up the money. It is absolutely dumb to expect our program to compete in the conference with minimal funding. I think the current expectations for our team should be to continue to improve the talent level (which we are doing) and HOPE that we make the tournament. At this point our expectations should be low and we should hope that good things happen. Good things can happen for the program but it will never be sustained without the proper funding.
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Re: we just won our first conference series this yr

Postby MarleyDogg on Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:29 am

I'm not even sure why I'm walking into this mess, but...

I am very much aware of college baseball. I grew up following it VERY closely. I know how good of a conference the SoCon is in baseball. And I hold realistic expectations for our team and do hope that we see some growth over the next couple of years.

HOWEVER, the SoCon is also a very good football conference despite the fact that the NCAA splits D1 into two subdivisions. The SoCon had two skill position players taken back to back in the THIRD ROUND of the NFL Draft last week. Just because we don't play LSU or Alabama every week in football doesn't mean that we aren't playing at a high level of competition.

Also, some people in this thread are acting like the football team could never beat an "FBS" opponent (they could and they will) and that baseball and basketball do it all the time (they don't; it happens every so often and is celebrated appropriately when it does happen).
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