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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:21 pm
by terrierbob
I know this is going back a few days on this rambling topic, but has anyone heard anything lately about ETSU and football? I recall there being an unofficial group that was organized to get it back for the Bucs.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:00 pm
by TDOG21
BossTerrier wrote:Since Wofford joined the SoCon, we are 5-9 against Davidson, with one win in the quarterfinals of the 2000 tourney. I would say that winning 1 out of 3 against them when they have clearly dedicated their entire athletic budget to success in Men's Basketball in pretty good.

According to the numbers on, C of C, UTC, and FU spend more money on basketball than Davidson.

UTC, UNCG, C of C all spend a higher percentage of their overall athletic budget on basketball than Davidson does.

Wofford spends the smallest percentage of their athletic budget on basketball of any Southern Conference School .

Does your of logic going winning 1 out every 3 games, then apply to the rest of these teams?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:39 pm
by dude
I would just say a couple of things:

First of all, I think anyone who wants to lose Davidson in the SoCon is least if you're a Wofford person. I believe firmly that Wofford benefits from being associated with a school of Davidson's academic reputation -- on of the few of that caliber in the SoCon, by the way. Also, the school's have a lot in common and there's potentially a great rivalry there. It's good for Wofford as a college, in my opinion, to be in league with Davidson.

As for budget issues, I don't know much about it. But I think it's a simple fact that Wofford spends a LOT less on basketball -- along with most other sports -- than most SoCon teams. Davidson's lack of football may help them in basketball spending, but what about Furman and UTC and others? How much do they pay their head coach? How many assistants do they have on full salary? Can they send coaches on airplanes all around the globe to recruit? How about Wofford?

Fact is, we're playing from a disadvantage in the money department. It's just something we've got to work to overcome....both by playing hard and smart recruiting, as well as fundraising. But pushing Davidson (or Charleston or UNC-G, for that matter) out isn't the answer, in my opinion.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:53 pm
by dude
Just a couple other remarks:

Not to say everyone should be thrilled with what they've seen from Terrier basketball lately, but the situation with injuries has been really outlandish. How many programs have lost their top scorer for the season 3 of the last 4 seasons? And here we are this year without our starting point guard for our two crucial opening SoCon games. Just absurd.

Also, TerrierBob, I dig the old-school, classic "W" helmet.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:15 pm
by JoMo
[quote="dude"]Davidson's lack of football may help them in basketball spending, but what about Furman and UTC and others?

For the record, Davidson HAS a football team that plays I-AA non-scholarship football (aka cost-containment). There are 13 other schools nationally that play this classification, most of whom have very strong basketball programs (Dayton, Georgetown, Butler). For the class that we play, we are competitive.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:40 pm
by dude
I hear you, JoMo....that's understood.

But, yeah, in terms of scholarships and that whole deal, the difference in expense would be great, I would imagine.

Either way, I think Wofford benefits from playing basketball in the same league as DC.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:11 pm
by Eyes of Old Main
Here's a question for our Davidson visitors (or anyone who may know). Hopefully, I don't look too ignorant by asking this. What is the difference between "I-AA Non-Scholarship" and "Division III"?

All I can figure is that I-AA Non-Scholarship is the equivalent of D-III, but allows it's members to be D1 in all other sports. Clarification please from someone in the know.

As for the argument as to whether Davidson should stay or go, it doesn't really matter since nothing is going to happen either way, but I guess it bothers me that Wofford struggles and scrimps on it's sports budget to play football at a level they really can't afford to and suffers terrible records in most sports because of it when Davidson, who has more students, more alumni and more money chooses not to do all it can and is rewarded for underparticipating by winning and garnering such attention as a "basketball powerhouse".

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:55 am
by woffordgrad94
I wouldn't call Davidson a powerhouse, at least not in the eyes of the average basketball fan/person in our nation. College of Charleston is more along those lines...they are picked to win the league this year and they were able to get a high-profile coach in Bobby Cremins. I doubt Cremins would take a job at Davidson right now

NCAA regulations

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:31 am
by JoMo
Forgive the further digression (isn't this a basketball thread?), but the question was asked so I will answer it.

The NCAA requires that if you play division 1 in any sport, you play division 1 in every sport (assuming that classification applies to the sport in question). This rule was designed to keep schools from severely underfunding one particular sport for the sake of another (and yes, Davidson spends roughly the same amount on football as on men's basketball). It was also designed to keep larger more affluent schools from putting a particular sport in a classification where they would destroy the competition every game every year (think VT playing D-II football with their budget). Since Davidson plays D-1 basketball we can't play D-II football (or D-III, for that matter). The NCAA used to grant Davidson a geographical waiver so that we could play essentially a D-III schedule in football (the closest I-AA non-scholarship school was G'town). That changed when five more schools decided to drop football scholarships and form a conference (the pioneer league) with I-AA non-schol. programs. All of these schools, have had to at one point or another, make the difficult decision to drop scholarships in order to remain competitive in other sports. I have assumed that Wofford would have gone this route a few years ago (what percentage of the total athletic budget goes to football at Wofford?). Wofford would probably be better served by going the route that Davidson has gone. Do you really want to be known as football school where every other sport is a perennial loser (based on the discussion on this board)? (Before you argue that Davidson is just a basketball school - Davidson is a good soccer school both men's and women's [men's final four in 1993], strong in swimming, baseball, volleyball and track and at least competitive in other sports).

In short, Davidson played D-III football teams when I was there because there wasn't anyone close who played in our classification. If the NCAA hadn't mandated that we couldn't be D-III in football, we probably would have been. Now that the team is better we probably could play SoCon football respectably (lost in OT to Elon this year and by two to VMI, who used to be SoCon). The level of play in the pioneer league has gotten incrementally better each year to the point where U. of San Diego was ranked #11 in the final I-AA poll this year and Drake got some votes.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:31 am
by Eyes of Old Main
Thanks for the clarification, JoMo.

How much of Davidson's football budget goes to travel? Or do they track that separately? The Pioneer schools are spread out all over the place and there's no way Davidson doesn't get eaten up with travel costs.

When Wofford decided it had to get out of D-II, they looked at I-AA or D-III and chose I-AA. I don't think I-AA Non-Scholarship was considered. At this point, so many of our football scholarships are funded by donations specifically earmarked for football, I doubt that the football team could go non-scholarship and transfer those to other programs, but I'm not sure how that would work. I think Wofford is very happy where it is and I think a move out of our current situation would create serious fan revolt so I doubt a move has even been or would be considered.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:38 pm
by BossTerrier
We better not consider that direction-I agree. Davidson is not a powerhouse in any sport-The poster above was mentioning soccer in 1993. I'll take a final four I-AA football appearance and a final #3 ranking in 2003 over a soccer championship any day. However, I think that money is a crutch that we use to often. We have had good competitive years since moving to DI in women's soccer, tennis, golf, and one .500 year in men's basketball and a good year in women's basketball before graves left. It's just not consistent. Also, while the investment is clear in football, the coaching staff definitely is owed much of the credit for the success we've had. And none of them are on the verge of early retirement due to the bank they've made working at Wofford. They're committed and good at what they do. It's not alla bout the money. Besides, without football we don't get to play the big name programs to pull in $300-500k to offset our budget.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:25 pm
by Eyes of Old Main
Like I said, "serious fan revolt".

No doubt the Terrier Club's donations would dry up quickly if such a move took place.