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Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:32 pm
by youngterrier
Samford is a dumb team (and by that I mean that Hatcher underperforms) in that they still try to run the ball 20-30 times a game when they have no semblance of a run game.

If you looked at how they played against anyone else this year (Citadel, Samford, etc) they were able to get consistent yards running the ball. Our front 7 wasn't having that. That's why they threw it as much as they did. Passing is their strength, but Hatcher doesn't want/prefer to throw it as many times as they did.

For example, last year they were more successful running the ball against us and also more efficient passing the ball (only 4 incompletions). By any measure except yards, it was the game they preferred to play against us, not this year. I liked the package we brought out against Samford (admittedly, I'm not a defensive expert), replacing the linebackers with an extra DB; it was something new.

I can't fault them for getting yards in the way they get yards. It's efficient, it feels cheap at times, but it works. At the end of the day, those sort of offenses are stopped in the trenches; you have to force the QB into a bad decision with pressure, sacks, etc or you force drops with hits at point of contact with the receiver. If you look at how any team plays defense, whether it be the New England Patriots or Alabama, no one can blanket 3+ receivers that can stop the dink and dunk 100% or even 50% of the time. The play against that is to simply get to a shorter field where there's less space (which is what happened yesterday in the first half).

We got pressure yesterday, but not as much as I wish we could have. For some reason we've not been great this year at getting pressure. I felt like there were at least 1-2 holds that should have been called but weren't (but then again, I feel like that's a common complaint by every team, so I'm not sure)

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:06 pm
by WocoSix
Respectfully disagree with the can not match up with 3+ WR comment. Kennesaw and WCU did a great job of press man vs samford. You can't really shut down a team that is use to throwing 40+ times a game. But we can mix up coverages and blitz packages to make the SoCon player of the year at least read a defense. Letting him sit in the pocket and wait for WR's to clear zones seemed to be our approach. Most D-Coordinators force teams with short passing games to go to their long to middle pass plays and forcing them to throw 50-50 balls. You do this by
-Walking your safety to the LOS
-Drop DL in coverage when blitzing LB's
-Overload one side of the OL.
-Force the offense to keep an extra blocker in the backfield
-play cat mouse where you show blitz but drop in short zones or bring the kitchen sink occasionally

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:11 pm
by youngterrier
WocoSix wrote:Respectfully disagree with the can not match up with 3+ WR comment. Kennesaw and WCU did a great job of press man vs samford. You can't really shut down a team that is use to throwing 40+ times a game. But we can mix up coverages and blitz packages to make the SoCon player of the year at least read a defense. Letting him sit in the pocket and wait for WR's to clear zones seemed to be our approach. Most D-Coordinators force teams with short passing games to go to their long to middle pass plays and forcing them to throw 50-50 balls. You do this by
-Walking your safety to the LOS
-Drop DL in coverage when blitzing LB's
-Overload one side of the OL.
-Force the offense to keep an extra blocker in the backfield
-play cat mouse where you show blitz but drop in short zones or bring the kitchen sink occasionally


Without getting into the nitty gritty of defensive tactics I will say 2 things:
1) Alstatt was on the line all day, sometimes blitzing, sometimes covering
2) western Carolina allowed Hodges to rack up over 500 yards in the air against them, including more yards per completion; against Kennesaw, he only threw 24 passes. it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:31 pm
by WocoSix
Probably should clarify my WCU and KSU statement. They both gave up significant yards but if you look at the flow of the games, when stops were needed they went more to press man and it seemed to confuse Samfords QB. I am not saying man press entire game, but do incorporate in game planning. And like I said in other post I think taking out a LB for any Samford type offense is a good idea. I dont think matching Alstatt or Massey against Samford's #6 McKnight or #83 Shelling was a good idea. Go back and watch the game and see where the majority of the yards came from and how effective those blitzs from Alstatt were. Samfords staff adjusted and picked him up with a lineman and used the zone he vacated to create 1on1 matchups with safeties against their shifty WR's. When dropping in Zone coverages the rule is suppose to be look up WR's and make them cross your face. NOT to just drop in a zone and let WR's find windows,curl up ,or run to soft spots behind you.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:52 pm
by boulder3m
I just went back and watched the game again. We rarely rushed more than 4-by my count under 10 times. Once they started throwing the sidearm dink we NEVER put a player in position to stop or pick the throw. Oftentimes we only rushed three. Of the times we blitzed or rushed with more than 4 we either caused an incomplete pass or interception over 50%. When we rushed only three they picked us apart.
I don't care what the stats say or what others did against them; the eye test and a simple count shows that when we sat back and let them dictate what they would do, they picked us apart. Unless we change it will happen again. You think ETSU won't do the same against us?

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:45 pm
by youngterrier
boulder3m wrote:I just went back and watched the game again. We rarely rushed more than 4-by my count under 10 times. Once they started throwing the sidearm dink we NEVER put a player in position to stop or pick the throw. Oftentimes we only rushed three. Of the times we blitzed or rushed with more than 4 we either caused an incomplete pass or interception over 50%. When we rushed only three they picked us apart.
I don't care what the stats say or what others did against them; the eye test and a simple count shows that when we sat back and let them dictate what they would do, they picked us apart. Unless we change it will happen again. You think ETSU won't do the same against us?


to the last point, no.

ETSU has a paper mache offensive line compared to Samford.

It sounds cocky to say, but that's the cold hard truth. ETSU can't be mentioned in the same sentence as Samford.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:54 am
by Shorthair13
WocoSix...Once you start going to practice everyday and see how the players perform on a daily basis you might want to hold off on your judgement on who should play where. You also might want to take into account when you start criticizing individual players that these players are just kids. I just find it interesting you concentrate on our Safities when the secondary consist of both corners and safeties.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:32 pm
by WocoSix
SH13 if you read the entire thread, I was only responding to a previous thread that mentioned names. I understand that these are all amateur athletes and try to leave names out when evaluating, but in no way is this pop-warner football where all kids play and get participation trophies. I don't have to be at practice to evaluate what we see on the field. I can tell Gbessee is faster and more agile than Miles Brown without being at practice. If you understood football Safeties are built to cover TE's, Run Support, Deep ball assist, and on occasions play the physical WR's. Me stating that a Safety covering the smallest, quickest, and fastest kids on Samford's roster is not a knock on the player... Its just not logical. The equivalent would be telling Lebron James to guard Allen Iverson!

And the reason "I concentrated on our Safeties" was because that's who Samford was targeting and most successful. Go back and watch the replay. Our Defense is littered with talent at every position. But you have to put the players in a position to succeed.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:35 pm
by youngterrier
Did you play ball Six?

And I think the concise criticism is that the defensive gameplan didn't adjust when it needed to as we did not optimally use player personnel

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:40 pm
by WocoSix
YT yes.

Exactly I loved the game plan coming out. But when Samford realized what we were doing,they made adjustments... we didnt! Not a knock on Alstatt, Massey, Rivera, or Tillery at all. Great kids and Athletes. We are lucky to have them

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:15 pm
by Shorthair13
WocoSix, A child can watch a game that knows nothing about football and tell Gbesse is faster than Miles Brown. But when you make the statement that Malik should play SS and JOJO at FS just wondering what made you come up with that conclusion.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:21 pm
by youngterrier
Shorthair13 wrote:WocoSix, A child can watch a game that knows nothing about football and tell Gbesse is faster than Miles Brown. But when you make the statement that Malik should play SS and JOJO at FS just wondering what made you come up with that conclusion.


I've not really looked into the issue, but one way you could probably figure that out is compare tackles per game and pass breakups/ints

If you have more tackles as a safety, I'd deduce you're more of a SS type (pretty sure that fits Malik Rivera's mold), while if you have more break ups/ints, the FS spot is yours.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:35 pm
by Shorthair13
YT, if your going by STATS..then SS and FS are almost identical with a couple more takes and int being different. I think that's what I'm getting at when we start making statements of who should play and who shouldn't. Especially when as fans we don't know what takes place at practices and other factors that are used by the coaching staff in determining the best players to put on the field.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:40 pm
by WocoSix
Bingo!!!

Malik is tackling machine. Alstatt seems to be the more cerebral of the group and would be more of a FS able to roam and "QB" the secondary. Tillery looks like the mixture of the two. For Tillery I'm basing my perception off the Ole Miss and Samford games of last season. And I don't thing we have faced this season any WR corps as good as those aforementioned.

Re: Defense?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:49 pm
by Shorthair13
WocoSix.. come on. The difference between FS and SS is 2 tackles over 7 games. So if that's a "Bing" lmao.