HUGE NEWS!!!!

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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Florida Terrier on Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:30 pm

Considering the average college student in South Carolina graduates in debt over 29K, I don't see the hardship for those Full Scholarship Athletes.

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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:31 pm

Unfortunately the ruling today only affected the up to $5k above the COA. It is was a different case than what is being referred to in this thread. Paying up to the COA, not just the scholarship cost is still in affect.

I've enjoyed reading all of the comments about this subject. One point of clarification, schools like Wofford could already help really poor kids with COA if they qualified for Pell Grant. A place like WC normally would take the Pell Grant and apply it to the scholarship, because as we know tuition alone is a lot. WC could always apply more scholarship money and allow a student to keep the actual pell grant. Only the most financially dependent students get it in that case.

All scholarship athletes are required to fill out a FAFSA to see if they qualify for any federal aid.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Ruckus on Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:51 pm

But could the student-athlete keep any Pell Grant monies that exceed Wofford's COA formulaic amount?
I saw an article on it (sadly I admit it was on a tweet that attached an article by al-Jazeera, a first for me). While the 9th Circuit struck down the "extra" $5,000 payment, it affirmed the lower court that college athletes have a right to their likenesses in video games and promotional videos. Interestingly, Walt Disney and CBS supported this position.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. More litigation to follow for sure.
I took interest in the comments by Kareem Abdul Jabbar and others that they were student athletes in name only and they were essentially indentured servants while at UCLA. Despite getting a free education and room and board, they feel they were "enslaved". I am sorry but I find that patently offensive and defies all logic.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:17 pm

You're right Ruckus the student could keep the pell, but the way it's setup now WC decides how financially strapped a student is and then they decide whether a student would be best to keep the money. Under the proposed I have no idea how WC would handle it, if they had to start paying COA. As you state it's all a calculation anyway, so WC could elect to handle it differently.

The one thing I'd say on this subject, is there are some kids out there in the world that are so poor they really could use the money. Typically that is not the typical WC student. Most if not all can afford the actual cost of attendance if they have a scholarship. All WC students are bright enough to be able to get a job and work in the summer. I'm fine with a calculation that allows really financially impoverished athletes to keep their federally provided aid, and for bigger schools to give them a little to help out. Unfortunately schools like WC don't make money off athletics so there's no way WC could afford that.

Our family feels extremely blessed to have a scholarship from such a fine school like Wofford, and I will do whatever I have to do to make sure he has everything else he needs. Considering I pay tuition at a couple of other colleges, I am more than happy to pay all COA at Wofford! Lol

I really don't have an opinion on being paid for your likeness. I can see both sides.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby WocoSix on Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:06 pm

So why do the athletes even fill out FASFA (or if they are South Carolina High School Athletes ..Life/Palmetto/Hope Scholarships)? With the caliber student athletes Wofford recruits, there are State and Federal monies kids seem to be forfeiting because they are classified as Student Athletes. My humble opinion is if a school offers a full Scholarship, then whatever that amount to attend is covered. Whatever taxpayer monies designated to the Student, is due to them for maintaining high Academic standards for 12 years of high school.

Seems the COA would be a non factor then and wouldn't be coming from WC but from good old uncle Sam!
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:39 pm

They don't forfeit the money if they are eligible to receive it. The scholarship money itself comes from wherever the school gets the money from. Keep in mind the only thing a kid signs is a commitment from the school to provide the necessary aid. i.e. scholarship. College students are not required to fill out the FAFSA. All the FAFSA does is determine how much of if any aid a student can receive. It's basically an unbiased decision maker in that regard, instead of each school determining on there on. So all schools that provide athletic scholarships require the athletes to fill out the FAFSA, just to make sure there isn't some money out there that the school doesn't have to come up with themselves. I'm sure there are some SC athletes that are getting all different kinds of aid and other kinds of scholarships including Hope and academic.

Part of the COA at all schools could potentially be gotten from Pell. So WC could take advantage of it. But it's need based aid so a lot of WC students wouldn't qualify for it. It's why all the athletes don't receive the same amount at other schools. It's need based even at schools where they are already giving the COA money out.

Here's a real life example: I know a young man that plays at Alabama, his parents are small millionaires, and his grandparents are multi millionaires. But he's on full scholarship at Alabama. He gets the smallest amount of COA money allowed, just a few hundred dollars, while another kid who comes from the inner city of Atlanta, who is eligible for maximum Pell receives the entire amount, about 4K. You might ask why would that rich kid even need the scholarship, he was a very good h.s. player so he was getting a high major scholarship from someone. So why not give it to him because ultimately his family will give far more to the school than what his scholly would cost. So translate that to Wofford: kid A is on full athletic scholly (keep in mind all that means is that WC has said they will come up with the money from somewhere) but doesn't qualify for any federal aid, well his or her parents can afford full COA. Kid B qualifies for full Pell, WC could say we'll pick up the whole scholly money from somewhere, and we'll let you keep your Pell to cover COA. That would be a way that WC could pick up at least some of the COA if it had to. Don't get me wrong WC would have to come up with the money from somewhere, but if that kid was a great player, and a good fit, it would be well worth it.

Sorry for the long post, but this is some tricky stuff.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Ruckus on Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:54 pm

Sorry for the long post, but this is some tricky stuff.


Which is exactly why it's a bad idea although I know some kids are in legitimate need.
WC foregoing Pell money just takes already precious schollie money away from other kids. Potentially those who could really use the opportunity. At schools like Wofford where there are finite limited dollars available, you're literally robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:17 pm

Ruckus you're exactly right. For kids that really need it give them something, otherwise leave the rest alone. It's why the COA wasn't really meant for the non Big 5 but of course all these wannabes bring it to our level. And that's no disrespect to schools like Wofford, I just mean Wofford does a great job being Wofford, it can't be USC. (Athletic wise anyway)
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby WocoSix on Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:27 pm

Lol... this sounds to complicated! #-o

Should be Simple Arithmetic right. If...

Cost Of Attendance at School A is... 30k a year (Room & Board, Tuition and Fees, Books)
Athlete is offered full scholarship, it would be 30K ... Correct

So if FASFA says STUDENT-Athlete is entitled to 2,500 and Lottery Education says STUDENT-athlete is entitled to 1,500...Shouldn't the athlete receive 4k?
No need for the discussions about COA.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:42 pm

Woco it is way too complicated! Lol

Unfortunately your scenario doesn't work like that. Unfortunately the COA is the discussion. COA is in addition to what you listed, it's on top of tuition, room and board, books, and fees. They've said it costs more than that for school, because you have to pay to get back and forth home, clothes, cell phones, and other things so athletes should get that, because of the extra they have to do that a regular student doesn't have to, and they can't work during the semester of their season.

Cost of attendance is the 30k you listed plus another 4-5k on top of that.
FAFSA only determines how much aid they are eligible for. If Pell is qualified for then at Wofford that amount, say 4K is applied to the 30k, then the rest comes from some scholarship dollars WC has raised, and/or lottery, or something else. So like Ruckus said if we use Pell to pay COA then we are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby BearDownMU on Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:27 pm

Really interesting discussion and good points made by all. I just want to make one clarification about scholarships, however. I was the Assistant Director of Admission at Mercer for a time and how you are characterizing scholarships is incorrect, and a common misconception. When a school like Wofford or Mercer offers a scholarship (or Grant in Aid as we called it in the biz) it is very, very rarely tied to actual dollars. Now, their are sometimes endowed scholarships where someone has given a bunch of money and they use the interest proceeds to pay part of tuition, but it doesn't happen a lot.

Basically, scholarships offered for athletics or academics or whatever are most often simply a reduction in sticker price. A coupon, if you will, in order to entice a desirable student to attend. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Wofford is $30K per annum, and a student interviews for an academic scholarship. Then let's say the school decides to offer them a $20K "scholarship". There is not $20K coming from one Wofford bank account and moving it over into the tuition bank account. The school is basically saying, we will charge you $10K per year to go here, rather than the full $30K because you are smart and we want to entice you to come here. All that "scholarship" was was a reduction in charged price. Or, unrealized revenue for you business types out there.

Same is true for athletics. A full scholarship doesn't require $30K to come out of some bank account. The school just isn't charging that student to attend. If you look up a college's stat in US News and World Reports, or other similar publications, you will see a stat called "Discount Rate". It measures the average amount the full tuition rate is "discounted" by providing "scholarships". So, if a school has a discount rate of 20%, it means that after all grants in aid are issued (and even some internal need based aid), on average, they are reducing the price of tuition by 20%.

Also, this is a bigger number than you think. If I remember correctly, across all US private colleges, the average discount rate is about 46%. Meaning, schools are actually only taking in 54 cents on the dollar of their published tuition rate, because of how many "scholarships" they provide.

This is why I always tell people, if a private school offers you an academic scholarship, always call your admissions officer close to decision time and ask them for a couple to a few more thousand dollars. A lot of the time, the Admission Officer may have the power to do it on the spot. But even if they don't, all they have to do is go to their boss or the Financial Aid director and get the additional request authorized, since it is only a small additional reduction in price, not real money.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. This is just an area that always raises an eyebrow when my friend's kids start looking at college and they ask me about financial aid.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby lawdog on Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:37 pm

Interesting and helpful BDMU ... thanks.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Tnterrier2 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:24 am

BDMU thanks for that. I too worked as a D1 basketball assistant in another life. Everything you've said is right on and you said it much better than I could have said. (And was trying to say)

However I was always told by our administration that what you say is correct, but you still have to raise the part that's left. It's not simply a reduction in costs. Otherwise why would you need endowed scholarships? A school could just simply say come on in, give them a full "scholarship" and never raise the other part of the money. Don't get me wrong it's been many years since I worked at a college, and I was certainly no expert on any of it then, but I thought that part was slightly different than that. Then the COA is on top of that.

Hey it's all too confusing, my head hurts. Still lots of litigation to go anyway.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby Eyes of Old Main on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:23 am

BearDownMU wrote:This is just an area that always raises an eyebrow when my friend's kids start looking at college and they ask me about financial aid.


Interesting. As the parent of a sharp 10th grader who is starting to explore options, that will be useful information going forward.
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Re: HUGE NEWS!!!!

Postby walliver on Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:14 am

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/ ... e1382.html

Wofford men’s basketball coach Mike Young, whose team made the NCAA tournament last season, said his school does plan to fund the full cost of attendance for his team next year. Like VMI, Wofford has a small enrollment — just 1,650 students.


Young said Wofford plans to require his players to take part in an internship in order to receive the extra money. He does not know which other Wofford teams might also get an increase.


This seems to be different from Dr. Samhat's letter.

Is basketball using "internships" as a way to pay the stipend without actually calling it COA?

This probably belongs in the basketball sub-forum, but the COA thread was already here.
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